Talk:Hyūga Clan
Ancestry There was an argument if they are descended from Hamura or Hagoromo and for some reason it's been changed even though before it said Hamura. In The Last, Hinata clearly states that she has Hamura's blood. Those descended from Hamura have some of his chakra and thus can destroy the Tenseigan.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 12:18, July 23, 2015 (UTC) :I'm absolutely positive that the Hyuga Clan is descended from Hamura.--Mina talk | 12:19, July 23, 2015 (UTC) ::It's all so confusing. Retsu no Sho stated that all the members of the Ōtsutsuki Clan except Hagoromo went on the moon to guard the Demonic Statue. We don't even know why Hinata was called Byakugan Princess or how she gained Hamura's chakra.--JOA2012:22, July 23, 2015 (UTC) ::: "The Last" made that PAINFULLY obvious. Similar to Senju/Uzumaki & Uchiha are descendant from Hagoromo, Otsutsuki (Hamura's Branch) and Hyuga are from Hamura. After the CANON movie how could that possibly get mistaken? Shock Dragoon (talk) 12:23, July 23, 2015 (UTC) Also there was this tidbit how Tenseigan is made and it got removed from the article for some reason. Toneri pretty much said his chakra as descendant of Hamura + Pure Byakugan = Tenseigan.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 12:29, July 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::Look at Haruma's talkpage there was a discussion on why he isn't their descendent.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 12:31, July 23, 2015 (UTC) Does it really then make much sense to say that she has Hamura's blood? That's like saying for example that 100x Great-Grandchildren of my brother or sister will have my blood.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 12:57, July 23, 2015 (UTC) :Hinata says that in her, there's Hamura's chakra. Not blood. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:00, July 23, 2015 (UTC) Only those of Hamura's bloodline could see the past sharing vision thing remember, and having one's "Chakra" usually implied blood relation in this series if I'm not mistaken...or reincarnation. "The Last" made it pretty obvious Hinata's bloodline at least is descendant of Hamura at least aka the Main House Hyuga. Shock Dragoon (talk) 13:07, July 23, 2015 (UTC) @Seel, I'm almost positive the term blood or bloodline was used too.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 13:38, July 23, 2015 (UTC) In the Tenseigan room with Naruto she said blood.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 14:45, July 23, 2015 (UTC) :She uses the term 血統 kettō, meaning lineage or family line. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:49, July 23, 2015 (UTC) ::You all may want to ask the one that put this topic up. 18:04, July 23, 2015 (UTC) Or maybe Hinata got Hamura's chakra from the dying Otsutsuki when he spit out the orb thingy? I dunno...--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 09:16, July 24, 2015 (UTC) :So to conclude, Hinata is part of Hamura's lineage and in her, there's Hamura's chakra, somehow. What do we do with that? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:25, July 25, 2015 (UTC) ::I don't know why this is being discussed this much. The movie made it very clear that the Hyuga ruling family aka Hinata's direct line comes from Hamura. Hinata made it clear that she was of his lineage and had his blood. Is it so hard to think either some of Hamura's line refused to travel back to the Moon (Hamura took the clan, nothing was said about his family per say) or that some members of his lineage left the moon. Hiashi mentioned bvery early in the series that the Hyuga have "celestial origins" after all. Ergo, Hamura's line split to those who kept the Otstsuki name and those who became Hyuga. Shock Dragoon (talk) 11:54, July 25, 2015 (UTC) :::Because it was made clear that every Ōtsutsuki Clan member except Hagoromo went to the moon, and that their Byakugan was sealed away in the Energy Vessel, including their descendants'. Not to mention that Hinata's chakra was depicted as blue in the movie, then purple after she met Hamura; so it probably was Hamura who gave her the chakra.--JOA2012:36, July 25, 2015 (UTC) Yeah, all Otsutsuki descendants and relatives of Hamura (except Hagoromo and his sons) went back to teh moon, that doesn't include Hamura's descendants who changed their last name to Hyuga perhaps, just like Asura's changed to Senju and Indra's to Uchiha etc.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 12:44, July 25, 2015 (UTC) :THANK YOU! The Otsutsuki clan as a whole went to the moon, but like I said in my previous post, some of Hamura's descendants stayed, adopted some Otsutsuki customs (Main and Branch House), and renamed themselves Hyuga. By JOA's logic, Ashura and Indra went to because their last names were Otsutsuki...which is not the case. Shock Dragoon (talk) 14:16, July 25, 2015 (UTC) ::That... actually makes sense. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:18, July 25, 2015 (UTC) :::Because Indra and Asura weren't born at the time Hamura and the rest of the clan went to the moon.--JOA2014:20, July 25, 2015 (UTC) Look, the point I'm trying to make is, they wouldn't have made a movie about: how the Hyuga and Otsutsuki are similar, had Hinata be the inheritor of this "Byakugan Princess" title that only Otsutsuki know about, make so many connections between the two, have ONLY Hinata and Toneri be able to see Hamura's spirit, and have Hinata actually say she (as a Hyuga Main House ruling family line member) has the "Blood of Hamura" and his chakra flowing through her, Hell even have Toneri need Hanabi's Byakugan when (according to JOA) any Byakugan would do, UNLESS they all descend from Hamura the same wasy Senju/Uzumaki and Uchiha are confirmed to descend Hagoromo. The Movie made this painfully clear. Shock Dragoon (talk) 14:28, July 25, 2015 (UTC) "Hamura fanboy here" OMG NO WONDER BORUTO IS A BEAST, descended from both Hagoromo and Hamura omg--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 19:06, July 25, 2015 (UTC) :^ Once again, the point Kishi is trying to make: the re-convergence of the bloodlines. Watch what happens when Boruto and Sarada hook up. Shock Dragoon (talk) 01:29, July 26, 2015 (UTC) @JOA20 "Because Indra and Asura weren't born at the time Hamura and the rest of the clan went to the moon." <- Kaguya knew them and their chakra, so I'm positive Indra and Ashura were born before Hamura and the clan went to the moon. Narsha (talk) 06:10, July 26, 2015 (UTC) :Going by his databook entry, Hamura departed for the moon right after the brothers sealed the Demonic Statue inside it, and Hagoromo himself said that his sons weren't born until sometime after the battle with Ten-Tails. As for how Kaguya knows about them, who knows? She may have been able to perceive the outside world from within Hagoromo the same way Kurama can from inside Naruto.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:50, July 26, 2015 (UTC) ::There's still the error/plothole about her sealing. Supposedly she was turned into moon right after they defeated her, yet Hagoromo was TT jinch hmph. But since she knows about Asura and Indra, she had to stick around for some time after they were born, unless Black Zetsu told her about them.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 11:26, July 26, 2015 (UTC) I think the plothole can be explained the meaning of Jinchuriki being retconned. Naruto has been referred to as the Jinchuriki of all of the Tailed Beasts despite only having eight of their chakra and all of Kurama's being. While Sora, Kinkaku, and Ginkaku are only Pseudo-Jinchuriki. This may be because, the chakra that the latter three have doesn't appear to be conscious at all and acts like nothing more than a blind animal. However, the chakra Naruto had was clearly conscious and he had a strong bond and connection between the beasts and was synced with them all. Perhaps the true definition of Jinchuriki is not simply a human with a tailed beasts sealed within them, but if they have that tailed beasts' conscious chakra within them as well. This would make the whole Hagoromo story make sense, as after Hagoromo and Hamura defeated the Ten-Tails and sealed it's body into what became the Moon with Six Paths Chibaku Tensei. It's chakra was sealed inside of Hagoromo making him it's Jinchuriki. As for her knowing about Asura and Indra by meeting them, that is impossible as Hagoromo stated that his sons were born long after his mother was gone. Therefore, it can be assumed that Kaguya knew about Asura and Indra either via being the Ten-Tails that was inside of Hagoromo and observing the outside world through him like all of the tailed beasts do with their Jinchuriki. Or, she received loads of information about the present and the past thousand years upon being resurrected via being connected to Black Zetsu and taking over Madara's body. As for the main topic at hand, I just rewatched The Last on chia-anime.com. However, the subs were decent but a bit faulty and a few lines didn't appear at all. So, I'm not exactly sure how accurate it is but it did say that Hinata and the Hyuga inherited Hamura's blood, and therefore his chakra. Which would mean they're his descendants, and even though the databook said that Hamura and the rest of the Otsutsuki left for the moon. It's possible that Hamura had kids who didn't go by the name Otsutsuki and stayed on Earth to become the Hyuga. But then again, Hamura sealed away the Byakugan of all of his descendants and used it to fuel the Tenseigan. But that would only apply to his Otsutsuki descendants on the Moon right? Unless the Hyuga actually don't come from him? It's all too confusing, but we should really decide soon with some definitive proof. Cause at the end of the day, Manga > Databooks and since The Last counts as a Manga chapter. If someone can get proof from a great sub of The Last saying that the Hyuga have Hamura's blood, then they're indeed his descendants regardless of the Databook saying Hamura and all of his descendants departed to the Moon. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 18:53, July 29, 2015 (UTC) Anyone have a way of finally settling this debate? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 18:12, July 31, 2015 (UTC) :Please someone do.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 18:25, July 31, 2015 (UTC) ::Fine, after watching "The Last" multiple times, seeing Hinata mention she has Hamura's BLOOD in her and as she is a part of the Hyuga ruling family, it stands to reason that without a doubt, the Hyuga clan descend from Hamura in the same vein as the Senju/Uzumaki & Uchiha descend from Hagoromo. In facts, TONS of other clans most likely descend from these two that have been discussed yet. Hyuga are Hamura descendants, this has more going FOR it than AGAINST it. 20:49, July 31, 2015 (UTC) :::^^Agree with the Hyuga being Hamura's descendant, as the user stated above it has more going for it than against.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 23:59, August 2, 2015 (UTC) Alright, if what has been said above is true, and it is true that they more going for it than against it. Especially with the whole parallel to how the Rinnegan is unlocked with Hagoromo's descendants, then I think Hamura's page and the Hyuga's should all be edited once again to say that the Hyuga are Hamura's descendants? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 15:20, August 8, 2015 (UTC) Yes please, lets conclude this and make suggested edits.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 16:14, August 8, 2015 (UTC) :Let's not and read this and this instead. I can translate that part again if you want me to. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:44, August 8, 2015 (UTC) ::That would be great, finally put this thing to rest.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 21:51, August 8, 2015 (UTC) :::Sure you can, but doesn't that contradict The Last?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 21:56, August 8, 2015 (UTC) ::::No, the information comes from the Retsu no Sho, after all. I'm pretty sure you guys just misunderstand something. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:00, August 8, 2015 (UTC) :::::...Or Kishimoto, being human being(as far as we know), didn't thought things through and made a mistake. True, we're human beings too, so we could have misunderstand something, since we do not speak Japanese, but when you really, REALLY think about, it's only logical to think that Hyūga Clan would be descendants of Hamura. From what I've understood from your link, one day, centuries after Kaguya was sealed, a baby was born with Byakugan to some clan that didn't possessed Byakugan and from there, Hyūga Clan was born. POOF, just like that. That sounds... Stupid.--JouXIII (talk) 22:14, August 8, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, things always sound stupid to those that don't understand it. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:21, August 8, 2015 (UTC) :::::::And you can say you understand it 100%? I'm stupid, I don't mind to say that, so do enlight me.--JouXIII (talk) 22:32, August 8, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::I can say that I understand that atavism is a thing. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:45, August 8, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah, me too. I just think it's stupid. Natural thing, for sure, but still stupid.--JouXIII (talk) 23:06, August 8, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::Well, from what I understand, it doesn't have anything to do here anyway, so it's not really important. Gonna post my final opinion/translation tomorrow~ (or so) • Seelentau 愛 議 23:07, August 8, 2015 (UTC) Well Seel, that kinds of contradicts The Last. But then again, The Last didn't do a good job of explaining things anyway and Retsu no Sho is the official databook for the movie. So despite what The Last says, I guess the databook really is true. Shouldn't we state that the Hyuga come from Hagoromo then? Since he was the only Otsutsuki left on the planet to produce the five clans(Senju, Uzumaki, Uchiha, Hyuga, and Kaguya) and the only one left who had Kaguya's genes to pass on the Byakugan? Or can we not add that since it wasn't officially confirmed? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 23:22, August 8, 2015 (UTC) :As I said, from what I understand, the information about the genetic throwback is wrong. Also, Hamura could be the Hyuga's forefather simply because despite taking with him the entire Otsutsuki clan, he didnt took Indora and Ashura with him. So who says that he hadn't offspring that stayed on earth as well? :Suzuakun's translation of that part matches with mine as well. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:31, August 8, 2015 (UTC) Okay, after reading over the stuff that you linked, I agree with you that the part about the genetic throwback is wrong and that everything else is right. The Hyuga are Hamura's descendants that he had before going to the Moon and having descendants solely within the Otsutsuki Clan and sealing away their Byakugan to power the Tenseigan. Both The Last and the databook (except for the part about the atavism) prove this. Therefore, I think the pages can be changed to reflect that once again? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 23:59, August 8, 2015 (UTC) :As I said, imo the text doesn't say anything about atavism. I asked OD about her translation, let's wait for her reply before we make the necessary changes. • Seelentau 愛 議 00:14, August 9, 2015 (UTC) I'm referring to this http://i.imgur.com/X08UzA5.png when I talk about the atavism thing. This is the main thing that was posted on Hamura's talk page that made us all think otherwise to begin with. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:21, August 9, 2015 (UTC) :Yes, I trusted that translation as well, but apparently, it's not correct. I asked some more Japanese people and they all told me it had nothing to do with atavism. So I think it's safe to say that the Hyuga are descendants of Hamura. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:54, August 9, 2015 (UTC) ::Finally... I think it was more like the translator's opinion more than anything.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 12:37, August 9, 2015 (UTC) ::Bumpy ^_--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 09:09, August 11, 2015 (UTC) :::What else is there to bump? :) Revert it how it was.--Omojuze (talk) 10:06, August 11, 2015 (UTC) ::::Oh, apparently someone has already re-added it, good ^_--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 10:26, August 11, 2015 (UTC) The Hyuga are not descendants of Hamura Hamura went up to the moon with all of his descendants and sealed away all of his descendants eyes including the eyes of his posterity (unborn descendants) (1) thus the Hyuga are not descendants of Hamura. The Hyuga are a genetic throwback (Atavism | an unexpressed genetic trait reappearing) (2), likely descendant from Hagoromo. --DC52 (talk) 00:05, November 13, 2015 (UTC) :I'm tired of this discussing this topic again. Refer to previous sections on this topic in this very talk page. Omnibender - Talk - 00:24, November 13, 2015 (UTC) ::Yes, they are. Hagoromo does not have the Byakugan and none of his known decendants has. No Uchiha with Byakugan, no Uzumaki and Senju. The Hyuga are decendants of Hamura, see Hinata the Byakugan princess with Hamuras Chakra. - At first its most likely that some Outsutsuki returned to the earth made children with Humans and at some point a Woman with Byakugan met a Hyuga with the KKG to release Chakra from any Tenketsu of his body and together they did bear a child, most likely a man with both KKG and he made the Hyuga Clan what it is knwon for today. - Second thing, even with the lose of there eyes, they dont lose the DNA, which they pass on to there children, who can be born with the Byakugan. - Third, they are the inventors of the puppet technique, which at some point also came to the earth, someone could throw in that some of Hagoromos decendants invented it, but so far only Hamuras decendants are known to use that Jutsu. So.. the Hyuga's are pretty much decendants of Hamura.--Keeptfighting (talk) 00:28, November 13, 2015 (UTC) :@DC52, dude, seriously, read the entire discussion above the one you just made (I have no idea how someone misses that). 00:55, November 13, 2015 (UTC) ::@WindStar7125, I wanted to bring my evidence to the table in a fresh discussion. Feel free to delete this discussion, and i'l move to the above discussion. --DC52 (talk) 01:33, November 13, 2015 (UTC) :::Not gonna remove it. :) But, if I had to sum up the above discussion, OD's translation was wrong, the Japanese text said nothing about atavism or a genetic throwback, therefore, with some more good points, safe to state that Hamura is indeed the ancestor of the Hyūga. 02:37, November 13, 2015 (UTC) Just watch The Last. It's made painfully obvious there that the Hyuga come from Hamura.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 05:03, November 13, 2015 (UTC) @DC52, thing is, you've brought literally no new evidence. Everything you provided was already talked about above. Also, how are you supposed to seal away the eyes of people who aren't even born? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:31, November 13, 2015 (UTC) :@Seel, im the one who first brought up the evidence on Hamura's talk-page. Well, it's a fictional series, posterity does mean someones unborn descendants. --DC52 (talk) 08:04, November 14, 2015 (UTC) ::I was referring to above. Everything you said was explained there^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 09:25, November 14, 2015 (UTC) Jutsu section bug Something ugly is happening in the collapsible jutsu section in the infobox to me. Anyone else seeing it? Omnibender - Talk - 03:24, May 5, 2016 (UTC) :All the extra code? I thought this was happening elsewhere as well :/ ah well Munchvtec (talk) 03:30, May 5, 2016 (UTC) ::Don't know why it suddenly started appearing. Should be fixed now.--''~UltimateSupreme'' 07:41, May 5, 2016 (UTC) "Unique to the Main Family" Where was it stated that the main family of the Hyuga Clan inherited the chakra of Hamura stronger than that of the others? The page doesn't seem to list a source for this. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:35, May 13, 2016 (UTC) Hamura Chakra Where was it ever even said anywhere in the movie that the WHOLE Hyuga clan has hamura's chakra? There's not even a references for this claim. The movie states that those with his blood can destroy the tenseigan, and that Hinata got Chakra form him directly. Someone give me a source for this claim or I'm removing it from this and all other related pages.Sonicsaga (talk) 20:48, April 24, 2017 (UTC) :I believe you're misinterpreting the sentence. It's the same here as the way that Asura inherited Hagoromo's body and vitality and the Senju and Uzumaki also had strong bodies. It's not literally that they have specifically his chakra. Omnibender - Talk - 21:28, April 24, 2017 (UTC)